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For all of you who go on about it...

I'd forgotten how often we saw Magritte

mucha mosaic

For all of you who go on about it...

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...there are so many OTHER reasons, aside from the main character's having committed rape, to hate Stephen R. Donaldson's fantasy opus.
It's clumsily written- it's full of insert-your-own-parable bullshit. Meanwhile, the character actually undergoes remorse for the act of rape, and tries to look after the child he begat through this act.
I'd call that one of the lesser of the many flaws of the series, myself.
  • He TRICKED me, because I LOVED The Mirror of Her Dreams and A Man Rides Through.
    • Yeah- the idea of a completely unsympathetic Man From Another Place being called on to save the magical seekrit place of magick because of his otherness is a nice little twist on the typical fantasy trope of fairly-normal-guy-from-another-place-comes-to-find-he-is-something-special-in-a-magical-seekrit-place-of-magick. The Covenant books don't deliver well on this promise, in my opinion.
  • I found it shocking, but that was because I was something like 12 at the time and it was the very first anti-hero protagonist I'd ever encountered. Hating it for the act, however, seems misguided -- it's not glorified, it's not excused, and the ramifications of his act continue throughout the rest of the series.
  • It's not that I think this is one of the major flaws of the story.

    It's just that it is not the sort of thing I like to read!
    • And that's a perfectly reasonable response. If you don't want to read space opera, you shouldn't pick up E. E. "Doc" Smith. If you don't care for graphic depictions of psychotic behavior and extreme violence, then you should at all costs avoid Caleb Carr's The Alienist. That's exercising personal preference- which is quite different than trying to hang the author with his own guts for writing it.
  • Hm.
    Main character commits rape then feels bad about it?
    *hides her manuscript*
    • No, that's a reasonable way to write about such a thing. It's silly to fixate on him having had a rape in the damn books, in my view, when there're such bigger fish to fry.
  • I hated them because they were boring, unpleasant to read, badly written, and the angsty self-loathing and refusal to cope reality really, really, grated on my nerves.

      Worst-written books I've ever read ever. Boo fucking hoo, I'm a leper, waa, I think I'll trot off to some fantasy world and make sure everything I touch gets corrupted, because it's such a metaphor for blah blah fucking blah, waa look at my pain.

      Jesus. I've heard goth bands that had a more positive outlook, and router manuals with more plot.

    • And I spotted this at twelve.
    • Yup. Not exactly a healthy metaphor, this novel.
      Well, septet, at this point.
  • Okay, you lost me.

    Meanwhile, the character actually undergoes remorse for the act of rape, and tries to look after the child he begat through this act.

    So, it'd be a better book if he reveled in the act and ignored the offspring of it?

    • No- it'd be a worse book if he did that. The point is that of the things that suck and are horribly handled in the Thomas Covenant books, that's lowest on the scale.
  • I didn't like this part, but forged on ahead and read the entire 6 book thing, twice. Apparently I am supposed to get something for this.

    But that was enough to put me off any of his writing after. I can't read anything else by him.
  • wait wait what series is this?
  • From context, I assume the main character rapes a woman, and then he "gets better." Yes?

    I haven't read it, of course. But from what you've written, it sounds like the whole "rape" experience is about what the male character does and experiences. Does any of it present the female victim's POV?

    Or is that just incidental to the character growth of the primary, male character?

    • There isn't any growth of the male character or any getting better. Sometimes you might think there might be, but then there really isn't. He just endlessly hates himself and ruins everything because he was so evil and raped someone.
    • What welcomerain said. Additionally, no, we don't see anything about it from the female character's PoV save for third-hand relations of how she coped afterwards with the situation.
      • It's worth adding that the woman he raped was the (relatively young woman, mind) daughter of his host. He'd fallen into the world in question and was being helped by said host out of the goodness of the man's heart. No reason ever really given for the rape, it just happens. She was there, I guess.
        • Having been fool enough to start reading the 7th Covenant book, the reason given is that he was overwhelmed by his suddenly re-awakened sexuality, in the light of being extremely and thoroughly healed.
          • You actually started the 7th? Wow, you're more perverse than I ever knew.


            • It was the ONLY BOOK in the Barnes & Noble near my parents' house that I had any vague interest in reading and had not already read. :/
  • I think the thing which offended me most about these books was the lack of an editor. These books, in my mind, give Jordan a run for his money about how many excessively useless words pollute it.

    And it's a one trick pony, which goes for 6 books (at least Jordan offers some variety), though I'll admit I was wise enough to stop after the third. Self loathing, when not peppered with anything else to call the character redeeming, or even interesting, should get old by the end of a short story, much less this many books.

    Gak, of all the books I've read on my own (not school related), Thomas Covenant were those I hated the most.
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